Commercial Estimators

We have been preparing for the change over to the new 2004 numbering system since the summer of 2004. It is now four years later and we have still not made the transition even though almost everything is in place. Our entire company is anticipating that this change will take place or would have taken place by this time. Our first reaction as with many was that it seems to be a lot of work to accomplish for a benefit that was not certain. After reading and re-reading and doing the preparation for the change over however it appears that the new changes will benefit construction and offer no more difficulties than the original.

Having said that, we are feeling a significant frustration with design professionals that are waivering on the use of the numbering system either previous or new. It is our opinion that the level of complexity required of estimates and the inherent possibily of errors is compounded when the design professional will not decide which numbering format will be used and instead produces a document that incorporates both systems in different sections of the specifications. We have received document using the new 2004 numbering system for divisions 3 through 14 and the 1995 numbering system for divisions 2, 15 and 16. On other occasions we have recieved exactly the opposite. We have even received documents using differing numbering systems within the same division. To say the least this creates an added possibilty of error and confusion.

Has anyone developed an answer to this problem that does not include injuring the egos or impinging on the rights of the design professionals.

Our success at this attemp has been limited.

Austin D. Mayberry

I don't know if there is an answer.  As design firms compete for fewer and fewer trained architects and engineers with larger salaries and have to bid on work they have negotiated in the past, the old "boilerplate" specs look pretty convenient.  Many jobs are designed by addendum.  The design is 90% complete and some portion of the other 10% is designed as RFI's come in during the bidding process. 

 At contract time the design might be at 95% or less.  That's 5% design hours saved for the design firm.  Being short-handed, those saved hours are used on the next project and the Project Manager gets the project built by enforcing the "design intent" clause and the last 5% is design-build by the subcontractors and suppliers. 

Look at the shop drawings of the fabricators required to prepare shop drawings for the permit process.  From the footing rebar to the support system for the insulated metal siding, the design is done by the supplier and stamped by THEIR engineers, not the architect.  A cut and paste of a few generic rebar details from the last 10 projects and a vague cross section of a furring strip with the note, "siding support design the responsibility of the supplier" is called a complete design these days. 

The answer lies with the owners.  When some of them get burnt by the errors Bud Mayberry is talking about, they will insist on the new system to be used consistently on all their projects.  Architects that can't get out of the 20th century, will be left behind.  Dinosaurs killed off by the meteor of progress.

 You sure feel the pain alot of others are feeling and have for some time. Even before the new Format was being introduced CSI codes seemed to fluctuate from Architect to Architect, and sometimes from project to project with the same firm....  I don't think there is an answer for all of it until a "forced change" comes about....

I understand the pain you are going to. I quit my first estimating job for the same reason.

I was working for small custom home builder company, The owner/CEO was trying to "organize" the company and change the estimates and specs formats from the company "own particular format" to an industry standard format (MF 2004 or Uniformat).

The owner and the computer geek decided to go with Master format for the parts book and uniformat for the estimate WBS. I admit the owner did not know what he was getting into.

When the first estimates in the new format came out, he did not like it because he could not see the cost the way he was used to see it. Therefore, the WBS was changing as per his request from one estimate to the next.

It was really fustrating for me because regardless the WBS I had to make sure everything was acounted for.

On my third job, I'm having similar challenges in which the senior estimator wants to use MF but the general construction manager wants to keep it the way it is (we have our own particular WBS).

My opinion is, prior to changing the system everybody involved in creating, reviewing and using the estimates should be trainned and explained the importance of knowing and understanding the WBS (that include: owners, managers estimators, accountants, sales and site superintendants). Many people agree with changing it but do not give the importance of actually knowing the new system and seeing the future challenges. 

Granrey, 

The NAHB has a good list of cost codes for a WBS. It is organized by work sequence for residential work. I believe it is integrated into some estimating programs...or is available as a database?

But I do understand why your field people want a schedule driven WBS system. It is logical system to remember the codes..since they build their projects in their minds before the construction starts.  

If I understand your post correctly:

It seems like an activity driven WBS would work well for buyout purposes for any type of work? Correct me if I am wrong, but the CSI format is accepted by the architects and owners for bidding purposes. So if you are bidding on large multi family structures that are designed by architects for owners, you need to bid the work in the format, they are comfortable in understanding. But when you buyout the project and then build it...it would be maddening for a superintendent or project manager, to use a list of codes that are not schedule driven, especially the CSI format.

But if you understand the differences between the WBS approaches, then you have a great opportunity to help your employer. I wouldn't give up on your present employer just yet.

For my benefit, is your present employer an established GC or a relatively new company? If it is a new company, it sounds like you have some good opportunities.  

Mike

The company is being on bussiness for almost 10 years. However, it started as basement company.

The company has grown but is shrinking again due to the problem on the residential market.

The problem when you use your own WBS for your estimates is that everybody has an opinion where things should be allocated. For instance, an item called: "foundation formwork". Some people might not know that item includes the cribbing labor too. We use permanent safety hooks on our decks. Some people think they should be allocated on the safety items, some other think it should be allocated with framing materials because is installed and bought toguether with framing materials.

In other words people are wondering if they should allocate items based on "what it is" or "where it is" or "when is used" or for "what it is used" , etc.

Regarding my actual company, I cannot complaint too much. we build big buildings.

 Coming back to the WBS. Among the challenges that I had in my first job is that there are things that in MasterFormat should be allocated separated in different places but in our custom WBS it should go in only one place all toguether. My boss did not like that because he could not revise the estimates in the way he is used to.

Another thing, they wanted to prepare a construction schedule (in Microsoft Project) with the items from the estimate. Even though in theory this sounds very simple is not simple at all.

 For instance my boss wanted to see "framing labor" as just one item in the estimate but in the schedule it should be broken down in 4 items: main floor framing labor, second floor framing labor, roof framing labor and basement framing labor.

Same case applied to drywall, painting, etc.

 There were items that were totally the opposite. In the estimate he wanted them in several items but in the schedule they should be in just one item.

Another thing we did was to have the parts book based on Uniformat and WBS in MasterFormat (I think we should have done the opposite or keep both the same),

Granrey,

        Could you create bill of material codes system for all of the items (labor/material/subcontract) in your database that correspond to the schedule...so when you run a bill of material report the items are in the correct order? I think the "when it is used" question is the easiest way to allocate it...but I might feel that way because of my background.

Mike

For me the difficulty over years has been two fold:

How do I maintain accuracy in my bids. When everything gets hectic and stressful just as it is in this economy now, I want all of our Estimators to remember their first duty is to be accurate. I do not want to miss anything and I do not want to include uneccessary items. In my experience this is only acheived by a consistant method of estimating. I struggle to maintain a consistant method in the midst of the various CSI codes that are used, as well as each architects individual method of arranging them. We think that we have been more successful than not over the years in accomplishing that.

 The second duty, at least in my mind is how am I going to present the information. That is a function of who you are presenting to. Fortunatly about 18 years ago we chose to purchase and use a software system for our estimating. Over the years we have been able to use the system to add wbs field to our estimates and to each item in the estimate. So now if someone want to see by the CSI codes we can present that. Our field can get the estimate base on our own job cost codes. We can also present the information using the uniformat coding system. We have developed various codes for particular owners and architects that can be accomodated during the take off process. Once the estimate is complete, we can just choose which way we want to present the information.

The upshot is that we do our take off in a consistant manner to prevent error but we have the opportunity to present in many ways. We are always asked to come up with some new creative way of presenting the material based on someone's desire to see the information from a different angle so I don't expect to have all of the answers.

I hesitate to think of how I would be able to do the same thing using the same methods I used when I started; Green columnar pads and a calculater with a tape and an accountant by our side to check all the numbers.

The second part of your post was really insteresting.

In my actual job we are going to purchase a software too. I hope it allows us to "display or present" the estimates in different formats or WBS as yours do.

 That was basically my struggle on my first job.

Granrey,

           I am fortunate to be estimating again. I am working for a upscale residential builder of single family and multi family builder that uses Timberline Extended for estimating and another Sage add on software.

Currently they code their phases in a CSI order. They do use their bill of material codes to organize the items in the database, according to their construction schedule.  It works pretty well with a four digit bill of material code system. So you can create reports that are field friendly.

My biggest challenge is creating smart assemblies again, so I can take off the material and subcontract work at a much faster rate.  

Good for you.

I know the residential sector is in very bad shape right now in the U.S.

 We had a good boom in Residential Construction in Alberta,Canada( for almost 5 years) but during the last year, prices have come down by a lot. Expeculation, overbuilt and the world crisis are the main reasons.

The biggest problem for construction employees in Alberta is that companies hired a lot of people in the last few years and now these people are facing unemployment. Some current employess have been told to take a paycut or face unemployment.

However, we still have a lot of job opportunities here in Alberta and we are expecting people to come to our province from Eastern Provinces like Ontario that have been hit pretty hard due to the problem in the Auto Industry. 

Our Province is based on the Oil Industry and the prices have come down by a lot too.

 I'm still on my company but I don't know for how long. The senior estimator was laid off (I'm taking his duties now), the construction manager and a bunch of sitesups were also laid off.